[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway .-.. thanks all for coming today/tonight!
[15:08] Lilith Ivory giggles
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn thinks she’s too far away from the audience
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, here is what I propose to use as a model… we might change it on future sessions
[15:08] Ceorl Onlyone: we are more of a drawing room crowd than an amphitheatre crowd πŸ™‚
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Short welcome (ok, well, we lost 8 minutes on that=
[15:08] Pip Torok: (can do something about that)
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (agreed, Ceorl!)
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Short presentation on the topic
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should take me perhaps another 5-10 minutes, depending on inspiration
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sometyimes there might be some slides
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Today there is just “Homework”, I’ll give you a link to read hehe
[15:09] Rosie Gray: oh oh
[15:09] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Ceorl, I thought you were a pillow.
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and then 3) free-for-all discussion, slightly moderated
[15:09] Ceorl Onlyone: πŸ™‚
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor! haha
[15:09] Alexia Carnell: omg
[15:09] Pip Torok: lol
[15:09] Sudane Erato: hehe
[15:10] Tor Karlsvalt: Good to see you
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some people prefer very formal sessions, but I confess I’m partial to free-for-all discussion, it works nicely if we’re not waaay too many
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I expect to post a chat transcript
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For which I need your permission πŸ™‚
[15:11] Pip Torok: you have it on every occasion, Gwyn
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next time, I’ll have a huge sign behind me saying “THIS SESSION WILL BE TRANSCRIPTYED”
[15:11] Garidin Winslow: You have mine, and thank you for being so courteous as to ask.
[15:11] Rosie Gray: it’s fine with me Gwyn
[15:11] Garidin Winslow smiles
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks πŸ™‚
[15:11] Sudane Erato: kk with me
[15:11] Alexia Carnell: ok
[15:11] Lilith Ivory: fine with me also
[15:11] Ceorl Onlyone: yes fine with me
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a point to this… with luck, people who couldn’t attend will be able to read the log and proceed with further discussion/questions on the site
[15:12] Ceorl Onlyone whispers: can we go by pseudonyms though ?
[15:12] Ceorl Onlyone: πŸ˜‰
[15:12] Ceorl Onlyone: kidding
[15:12] Sudane Erato: haha
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! Your ID card please, sir! πŸ˜‰
[15:12] Garidin Winslow giggles
[15:12] Rosie Gray: lol
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, you’ve stolen my introduction, Ceorl πŸ™‚
[15:12] Ceorl Onlyone: oh sorry πŸ™‚
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha just joking πŸ˜‰
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re very privileged here in SL
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like mmmh
[15:12] Ceorl Onlyone: no one pays attention to the sock monkey anyway
[15:13] Lilith Ivory giggles
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine discussing freely about fascism and communism in 1940
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What country would you use to hold such a discussion??
[15:13] Pip Torok: quite!
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, well, the problem about discussing online about pseudonymity and privacy,
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is that those discussions happen on… Google Plus
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or Facebook.
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well.
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not the best place for that πŸ™‚
[15:14] Rosie Gray: indeed!
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “I hate Google Plus!” β€” bzzt your account was deleted for violating community rules #2876286
[15:14] Ceorl Onlyone: it is the belly of the beast so to speak
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right.
[15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, in the past we were worried about *governments* doing that kind of thing to us.
[15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that at least since WWII we got universally a taste of what happens when people cannot freely discuss what they wish without fearing consequences
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks to that, we managed, to a degree, to keep governments from stealing what little privacy we canhave.
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However,
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We forgot corporations.
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Those are exempt from that.
[15:16] Ceorl Onlyone: also memories are short, few remain who remember WWII
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Few even remember “1984” πŸ™‚
[15:16] Ceorl Onlyone: exactly
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or think it’s an advert from Apple πŸ˜‰
[15:16] Sudane Erato: yeah
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks to “terms of use” or “community guidelines”,
[15:17] Ceorl Onlyone: Facebook is already accepted as “normal” by the masses
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: companies are able to decide what “rights” we have.
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Ceorl
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For me that’s actually scary.
[15:17] Ceorl Onlyone: yes for me too
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not long ago, in the region down by the river
[15:17] Ceorl Onlyone: I never accepted it
[15:17] Alexia Carnell: agree
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was in 2007
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A young lawyer told me (and he was being serious)
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “If you have nothing to fear you don’t need to hide”
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or words to that effect
[15:18] Pip Torok: !!!
[15:18] Ceorl Onlyone: that is a common refrain now
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What he meant is that privacy is “only” needed if you’re a criminal.
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right.
[15:18] Alexia Carnell: lol
[15:18] Lilith Ivory: uhm …
[15:18] Garidin Winslow: He has obviously never been a woman online.
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was utterly shocked when I understood that he was serious.
[15:18] Garidin Winslow: Or a marginalized group of any sort.
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Garidin…. no, we never was one
[15:18] Ceorl Onlyone: it is a blissfully naive viewpoint
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I asked him if he read George Orwell…
[15:19] Alexia Carnell: he didnt
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think he did, but he couldn’t really undedrstand what was wrong with his idea
[15:19] Pip Torok: (or any 20th C History Book)
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, probably not.
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m quite sure he was born after 1984 πŸ™‚
[15:19] Rosie Gray: he didn’t ‘get’ 1984 then
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No. He understood the issue about totalitarian regimes,
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but as a laywer, he wanted people to be safe, honest, and so forth
[15:21] Garidin Winslow: I don’t think the concept of the slippery slope is taught in every school, but it ought to be.
[15:21] Pip Torok: his job depends on the possibility of threats to his illusion
[15:21] Sudane Erato: Gwyn may have rashed
[15:22] Ceorl Onlyone: there is a lot of propaganda countering the lessons of history and fiction
[15:22] Sudane Erato: yep
[15:22] Ceorl Onlyone: poof!
[15:22] Garidin Winslow: Good catch, Sudane.
[15:22] Rosie Gray: oh oh
[15:22] Sudane Erato: lets save chat logs
[15:22] Garidin Winslow: Ah, there she is!
[15:22] Rosie Gray: there she is
[15:22] Rosie Gray: γ‹‘
[15:22] Ceorl Onlyone: wb πŸ™‚
[15:23] Lilith Ivory: wb πŸ™‚
[15:23] Garidin Winslow: Welcome back, Gwyneth!
[15:23] Pip Torok: wb
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I was censored by my ISP πŸ˜€
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you πŸ™‚
[15:23] Sudane Erato: lol :)))
[15:23] Lilith Ivory: wb πŸ™‚
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry β€” this will sadly happen a lot of times!
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn needs to complain a lot to her ISP β€” but will they start dropping the lines even more if I do so? πŸ™‚
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think that the first point in this discussion is… “education”
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, the discussion on pseudonymity tends to focus too much (IMHO!) on the many people who have a real need to be pseudonymous
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then it’s discussed as if it’s “merely an opinion”
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it’s an opinion of a *minority*
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So… it’s no wonder that “majorities” don’t really worry too much
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it’s time for the homework… lol
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me give you those links…
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn hopes she’s still in-world!
[15:26] Ceorl Onlyone: yes still there πŸ™‚
[15:26] Rosie Gray: I think you are Gwyneth
[15:26] Ceorl Onlyone: sitting sideways again
[15:26] Ceorl Onlyone: but there
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: goodie goodie πŸ˜€
[15:27] Lilith Ivory: … only slightly Ruthed πŸ˜‰
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: slightly! lol
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hrrmpf where are my links…
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *taps fingers*
[15:28] Ceorl Onlyone: your dog ate them
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a cat! … and a rabbit as ‘visitor’
[15:28] Ceorl Onlyone: nice πŸ™‚
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes. This is actually the second one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aotk6h1M_3njdGRibnRCbnNVTWhZWWRVYnBIMjVNcEE&single=true&gid=1&output=html
[15:28] Ceorl Onlyone: rabbits might even be better at eating homework
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whoever did this amazing piece of work
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes they are!)
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: managed to list pretty much everything that was written recently on the subject of pseudonimity related to Google Plus (and Facebook)
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What immediately caught my attention,
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is how many of those people are SL residents!
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That should be a *hint*
[15:29] Rosie Gray: wow!
[15:29] Rosie Gray: Rosie Gray is looking at the link now
[15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m pretty sure that the person who wrote this spreadsheet did NOT know about SL
[15:30] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Wow, awesome list.
[15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not 100% sure, mind you
[15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even the ones who aren’t pseudonyms
[15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: are familiar people in the SLogoshpere
[15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hamlet…
[15:30] Marianne McCann: I have a piece on that, but as my first life self, and not necessarily related to SL issues per se.
[15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right Marianne! We’re transcending SL hehe
[15:31] Ceorl Onlyone: yes many are from SL, but it is encouraging that we have others speaking out as well, some with some relevant credentials
[15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point was just that in here we are in the opposite situation as people discussing on facebook, Google Plus, or other blogs: here pseudonyms are the majority
[15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: most definitely!
[15:32] Pip Torok: and yet, in my own case, no objection from facebook (wonder why)
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then: the mandatory Wiki page. This was set up very quickly as the new ‘buzzword’ appeared: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymwars
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh Pip
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a very very very very good point.
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why did Google Plus, which is still in Beta,
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and has a population of “mostly geeks, technologists, evangelists”,
[15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and just barely more users than SL,
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: was caught in so much discussion,
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: while on Facebook, which has the same policy,
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: this hardly was discussed?
[15:33] Ceorl Onlyone: well FB started with real names
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except for a few SLers whose Facebook accounts were deleted
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not so!
[15:33] Ceorl Onlyone: no? I thought it did as a college directory
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When I joined FB it was not MANDATORY.
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it was not even mentioned.
[15:34] Ceorl Onlyone: oh but wasnt it predominantly real names to start?
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who knows? πŸ™‚
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oldtimers like me just “assumed” that… this is a service on the Internet… so Internet policy is part of it… and that means RFC1855
[15:34] Marianne McCann: Ya, I recall it originally being college-specific, but when I joined (shortly after that time), it did not seem to have a specific limitation.
[15:34] Ceorl Onlyone: the core concept was around real people and faces, college students trying to hook up
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a.k.a. “Netiquette”
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well there you go, Ceorl
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was teh first social networking site? πŸ™‚
[15:35] Pip Torok: imo its a function of FB’s fear of a particular individual
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hint: started in 1996)
[15:35] Ceorl Onlyone: with google though, many of us have been operating with nyms for several years, so we were shocked the radical change of policy
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyone wants to guess? πŸ™‚
[15:35] Marianne McCann: Friendster? Or something earlier?
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Earlier!
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Friendster is a child of the dot.-net era.
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *com
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok… it was (still is!) something called FriendFinder
[15:36] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Hmm. Maybe a group on Usenet?
[15:36] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow ponders
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it was a social site.
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is still live.
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Few years after it started,
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it changed the name to AdultFriendFinder
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does that ring a bell?
[15:36] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann nods
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a *dating site*
[15:37] Ceorl Onlyone: nope but I started on IRC
[15:37] Tor Karlsvalt: No fb wants to sell advertising, they want to know who the potential customers are
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not really “dating”… it’s really “I want to get laid tonight where do I get a girl?” kind of site
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pretty much the same reason why facebook started πŸ˜‰
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now I have this serious suspicion…
[15:37] Tor Karlsvalt: yeah match a product to a customer.
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The more vocal types about forbidding anonymity,
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hide themselves saying things about “business requires real names”
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As if that ever prevented Lady Gaga from selling CDs…
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I seriously suspect that the issue is really about dating πŸ˜‰
[15:38] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Or Bob Dylan.
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe πŸ˜€
[15:38] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow grins
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or gazillions of others
[15:38] Marianne McCann: Who? Do you mean Mr Zimmerman?
[15:39] Garidin Winslow (garidin): I do!
[15:39] Ceorl Onlyone: the transparency is one sided, businesses are very secretive, but they want us totally exposed
[15:39] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow smiles and winks at Marianne
[15:39] Tor Karlsvalt: right
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Doing business as” is actually pretty much an established fact on most democratic countries. You can set yourself up doing business as any valid name…
[15:39] Marianne McCann: Good point, Ceori
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha yes. That’s the third point indeed, profiling
[15:39] Pip Torok: … ever the way of businesses well before the net!
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Pip!
[15:39] Ceorl Onlyone: I think I read it in businessweek πŸ™‚
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh πŸ˜€
[15:40] Tor Karlsvalt: Lets face it we create a profile for fb, when we choose friends and tell our interests and likes.
[15:40] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Someone on Twitter said something to the effect of: “Even at the bank, conducting financial transactions, I am only asked to show the teller my ID. Google wants me to show my ID to everyone in the bank and beyond.”
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So… popular sites like geekfeminism have created a lot of information about why real people need pseudonyms (e.g. http://geekfeminism.org/2011/08/03/pseudospam-nymwars-continue/ )
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent point, Garidin
[15:41] Pip Torok: isnt the major fear of anonymity the fear that a coherent set of individuals cannot be recorded and so commercial info cannot be established?
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, in some countries, even if the police asks you for an ID, you can first require the police officer to show *theirs* first …
[15:41] Ceorl Onlyone: they list very compelling extreme cases, but I think we need to communicate that it is bad for everyone
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip: I think that is the biggest reason, yes.
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only that… the data mining goes way way beyond everything we dared to imagine 5 years ago.
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Remember Apple and the iPhone scandal? iPhones track *everything* about where their owners are?
[15:42] Ceorl Onlyone: I like to say “I am interviewing you for a job, I look you up online and find answers to questions I am not allowed to ask, I already don’t like you”
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Apple makes little use of that info, unless they sell it.
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about Google… and Android phones?
[15:42] Pip Torok: (I’m sure we’ll say that with as much truth 5 yrs from now ;( …
[15:42] Tor Karlsvalt: yeah, and then we found that the rest do too
[15:43] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Good point, Ceorl!
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they know your name. Your credit card. Where *
[15:43] Tor Karlsvalt: Isn’t there an anti-terorist issue too?
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I admit that these days before I do a meeting with a new client I look them up on the ‘net too πŸ™‚
[15:44] Tor Karlsvalt: I know the US govt wants to be able to get data if necessar on ppl
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Riiight. I think that we’ll do a whole session about terrorism β€” and fear
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to say I have pretty radical thoughts on that lol
[15:44] Ceorl Onlyone: yes Gwyn, I am sure they google you too πŸ™‚
[15:44] Garidin Winslow (garidin): However — and I am really, really grateful to be here with like-minded folks — I have had to recognize in the past few days that some of my closest real life friends are dismissive of this issue. So, I think we have to be clever. Those people are never going to get the nymwars, so we have to achieve our goal another way..
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Garidin.
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree with you.
[15:44] Garidin Winslow (garidin): We have to make sure Google+ doesn’t gain popularity.
[15:45] Ceorl Onlyone: we should be come educated about alternatives, and then we can show others
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it *seems* that Google+ is not catching much attention *now*. I got the hint from Daniel Voyager.
[15:45] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Whether that means encouraging them to go to Diaspora by telling them it’s better, or whatever … the core goal is not necessarily persuading people.
[15:45] Garidin Winslow (garidin): The core goal is making sure that Google doesn’t succeed here.
[15:45] Ceorl Onlyone: well it is not just google though
[15:45] Alexia Carnell: we should SELL them our real personal data lol
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that they should be forced to read/watch 1984, clockwork orange, and that kind of things… πŸ˜‰
[15:45] Pip Torok: I remember i was stopped by the police who wished to frighten me with their powers of real-time retrieval of facts on my vehicle …
[15:45] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow grins
[15:46] Garidin Winslow (garidin): I agree, Gwyneth! Required viewing and reading!
[15:46] Ceorl Onlyone: a good quote “if you are not the customer, you are the product”
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alexia: that’s a plan! hehe
[15:46] Garidin Winslow (garidin): But that goes back to the Education issue. *eye twinkle*
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice quote, Ceorl!!!!
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, Garidin… Education
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that I have a link somewhere
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to some brilliant guy who wrote a shortlist of what makes sense in the #nymwars
[15:46] Tor Karlsvalt: Tor Karlsvalt needs to improve his fb profile to me more in demand.
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was pretty much about education, yes
[15:46] Garidin Winslow (garidin): We have to make Google+ uncool. (Well, *we* already know it’s uncool, but you know what I mean.)
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, my personal problem is that “terror” is a weapon I dislike to use πŸ™‚
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There IS a site against google which uses terror to push the message around
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wish I had made a link of that πŸ™
[15:47] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Oh, mercy, no. I’m not suggesting anything of the sort.
[15:47] Ceorl Onlyone: organizations like the EFF are better allies
[15:47] Garidin Winslow (garidin): I’m just saying tout the advantages of one product over another.
[15:47] Marianne McCann: TBH, Gardin, so far Google+ has done little to prove it “cool” in the first place. At least to the average web user
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I also think that Google is not the issue. They’re just taking advantage of the situation, like the others.
[15:48] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Good points, Marianne and Gwyneth.
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Marianne: that was also Daniel Voyager’s point. Sure, G+ attracts geeks, technologiests, and evangelists. Where is the rest of the world?
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And since so many of those use pseudonyms…
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … they have been kicked out. And the rest try to remain silent to escape detection. The result? Streams are quiter these days.
[15:49] Alexia Carnell: we should SELL our RL profile and ask a commission evry time they do business with it
[15:49] Ceorl Onlyone: I thought we might be discussing radical ideas, such as online bills of rights or magna cartas, which always seem unthinkable before they have been realized
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope we’ll get there!
[15:49] Tor Karlsvalt: what about young people today who are supposed to be very lax with personal info?
[15:49] Ceorl Onlyone: good point Alexia, we are being used when we let them mine our data
[15:49] Marianne McCann Honestly, I think one can make a case that G+ gained its initial metoric rise in uses because it was “like Facebook, without being Facebook. Or so we thought. /me winks
[15:49] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow claps for Ceorl.
[15:49] Ceorl Onlyone: and not compensated, except with cool tools
[15:49] Marianne McCann: But it doesn’t have much too it beyond that.
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ceorl: here’s a starting point on that idea: http://virtualgovernance.tk/2011/08/30/bill-of-rights-from-the-internet-rights-and-principles-coalition/
[15:50] Ceorl Onlyone: yes I thinkI did skim that
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Marianne, you’re right, I was completely fooled by that!
[15:50] Marianne McCann: You’re not the only one, trust me
[15:50] Ceorl Onlyone: and that is where my first reaction was that wow this will never pass, but then I realized these always seem impossible at first
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[15:51] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Me, too! But, in fairness to us, it was not initially publicized as an “identity service.” It was publicized as a new social network.
[15:51] Garidin Winslow (garidin): That … and this seems ironic now … supposedly offered more privacy than Facebook.
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I ws also surprised on how adamant Google was in sticking to their policies on a *beta* product which, however, has impact on how you can use their *paid* services!
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Garidin! It was not even integrated with Google Profiles on Day One!
[15:51] Ceorl Onlyone: I joined specifically because I thought it would be facebook but with nyms and without games
[15:51] Ceorl Onlyone: I was wrong on both counts
[15:52] Marianne McCann: ^^ that
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ceorl: I always expected games to appear sooner or later via OpenSocial πŸ™‚
[15:52] Tor Karlsvalt: I have stayed away from it
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But well… I do business with Google under my pseudonym… have done so since 2005 or so… I never thought they would do a 180ΒΊ turn all of a sudden!
[15:52] Ceorl Onlyone: well that was probably an honest slip from schmidt, the strategy probably is a global identity service
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It makes a LOT of sense. Remember, Google is not just the largest search engine… they’re also one of the biggest suppliers of mobile phone operating systems πŸ˜‰
[15:53] Alexia Carnell: a global identity unauthorised use
[15:53] Ceorl Onlyone: well it is only in the last few weeks that I have begun to hear people talking about alternatives and ways of geting off Google, that is another radical 180
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tie “identity” to “GPS location of a user” and Google suddenly is not really the “company that does no evil” any longer. They have far more access to data than any Government ever managed to have.
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ceorl: now that comes as a shock to me!
[15:54] Ceorl Onlyone: well they have totally squandered their “do no evil” status
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, people seriously giving Bing a try… hehe
[15:54] Ceorl Onlyone: now they are “don’t get caught”
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree but… the truth is that “the mainstream media” has totally missed the discussion.
[15:54] Ceorl Onlyone: oh I have a link of great alternatives
[15:54] Ceorl Onlyone: I am already moving to some
[15:55] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Hee, Gwyneth.
[15:55] Pip Torok: the whole “do no evil” was sincere once, not now
[15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Microsoft’s version of “online Word” is far far better than GDocs hehe
[15:55] Ceorl Onlyone: http://nyms.wikispaces.com/Google+Alternatives
[15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip: indeed, it was sincere
[15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh thanks, Ceorl! Wow, nyms.wikispaces.com!!! I need to take a serious look at that!!
[15:55] Ceorl Onlyone: well they are huge, and corporate types have their own ethics
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ethics which change over time πŸ˜€
[15:56] Ceorl Onlyone: yes that got me into Diaspora*, and GMX mail, and looking at Zoho office
[15:56] Ceorl Onlyone: pure Macchiavellian
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zoho is ok, I’ve used it before GDocs
[15:56] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Me, too, Ceorl.
[15:57] Alexia Carnell: thanks Ceor, looks great
[15:57] Pip Torok: A corporate ethos tends to become equivalent to that of an amoeba …. swallow or be swallowed
[15:57] Garidin Winslow (garidin): I’m having trouble finding a simple but pleasant alternative to Reader, unfortunately, but I’ll keep looking.
[15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now my other issue (and then we can call it a day; great discussion so far!) is that Google might just be lending a hand to Facebook, whose CEO clearly said in public interviews that “privacy is dead”
[15:57] Ceorl Onlyone: I really have felt hurt by their change in policy, I was such a passionate advocate, and now I feel completely betrayed
[15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And if Google and Facebook together crush privacy forever,
[15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: then all others will follow.
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now this makes governments look plain silly.
[15:58] Tor Karlsvalt: you know Gwyn, they say in the US young people under 30 don’t care about privacy.
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Governments have still to protect privacy… or at least make a serious attempt to do so. But corporations are escaping from that!
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ve read that over and over again, Tor
[15:58] Ceorl Onlyone: they should listen to their elders πŸ™‚ (young people never do)
[15:58] Marianne McCann: I have heard that, Tor… but if anything, this means we’ve nto taught them to cherish it
[15:58] Pip Torok: they may in fact be a publicised minority Tor
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’m sure it’s not just in the US
[15:58] Ceorl Onlyone: do people still tell their children “don’t talk to strangers”?
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you’re right, Pip, but I *think* it’s not
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, just because of the paedophiles… yes, Ceorl
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But they don’t care. They join Facebook and then talk to strangers all day.
[15:59] Ceorl Onlyone: yes I assumed they do, but then there must be some age where that is reversed
[15:59] Tor Karlsvalt: no, they plan there lives to totally I don’t think they meet strangres
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And give them their phone numbers.
[15:59] Ceorl Onlyone: and broadcast theirlocations on 4 square
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly!!
16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, I encourage you to see the last episode of T3 of “Lie to Me”. It shows an imaginary corporation called “SeekOut” which is the ultimate breakthrough in completely blowing privacy apart.
[16:00] Tor Karlsvalt: I do have younger friends who contantly inform fb friends they are not at home.
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The technology is “almost there”. I’m not telling any spoilers hehe
[16:01] Ceorl Onlyone: it is more “there” than most of us realize
[16:01] Tor Karlsvalt: my mom would have boxed my ears if I could have done that.
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s really, really, scary. Google has 90% of the technology that is shown on that series. Today.
[16:01] Ceorl Onlyone: that is just the technology we know about Gwyn
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree!
[16:01] Ceorl Onlyone: assume it is actually a generation beyond that in some segments
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The idea is *so good* that I’m sure that someone must be developing it
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, watch that episode. The plot is a bit irrelevant, it doesn’t even focus on the privacy issues, except for some comments
[16:02] Pip Torok: isnt that a powerful motive for anonymity to stop data coalescing?
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that leads to the final question…
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Education is ok…
[16:02] Garidin Winslow (garidin): *Latitude: See friends on the map and check in at places
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even attracting the attention of the mainstream… that might be doable…
[16:03] Garidin Winslow (garidin): That’s an existing app.
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But how can privacy be effectively *rptected*?
[16:03] Ceorl Onlyone: setting personal examples too
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, imagine that the US and Europe forbid Google to do such amounts of data mining, or to set teh ToS they have. What prevents Google to move their operations to, say, Russia, and operate from there?
[16:03] Pip Torok: well imo theres a place for firefighting but also for longerterm education on a systematic basis
[16:03] Ceorl Onlyone: well there is the ground up approach of educating and countermeasures, but the other top down one is through the law, and the market
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The law.
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem is… jurisdiction,
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How can you prevent a company to do their data mining in data havens in Panama for example?
[16:04] Ceorl Onlyone: well that could be a plus in some ways, makes the playing field complicated and dangerous for the data collectors
[16:05] Ceorl Onlyone: even google probably has trouble keeping track of which data it flows into our out of what jurisdiction
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well you know about online gambling sites…
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just operate offshore.
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What prevents data mining operators to do the same?
[16:05] Ceorl Onlyone: well that would be a very significant handicap for them
[16:05] Pip Torok: how about an undecover approach .. gradually seed fake data until the credibility is vitiated?
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google operates a *cloud service*
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why a handicap?
[16:06] Ceorl Onlyone: right now they are insiders with businesses and governments
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I like that, Pip πŸ™‚ That’s why I usually insist to keep my own pseudonym accounts online as much as possible hehe
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ceorl…
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But government *has* an interest in “less privacy”, and this is a way for government to subvert constitutions.
[16:06] Ceorl Onlyone: not that I am a lawyer or able to bring suit
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, imagine, a police officer needs to figure out where someone is at some moment in time, but cannot get a warrant.
[16:07] Ceorl Onlyone: yes, agreed, I think google and some governments have a lot of common interests
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Simple, they chat with someone at Google… and Google will track them down
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And in the mean time provide the officer with gazillions of data
[16:07] Ceorl Onlyone: yes, it would be very effective
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, sure, this cannot be used at court but…
[16:07] Tor Karlsvalt: that is what SL AVs do in a way. Think how many AVs are totally different from their RL masters.
[16:07] Ceorl Onlyone: it is like the job interview, geting answers to questions they are not allowed to ask
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Ceorl!
[16:08] Ceorl Onlyone: but only if we put the answers out there
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, people do, so…
[16:08] Ceorl Onlyone: oh yes, I dont think we can stop say the police from searching
[16:09] Ceorl Onlyone: that is actually reasonable on their part, but we should make people aware of the risks they run by putting their info out there accessibly to all
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine… if during a meeting you ask someone’s religion, and exclude them for being of the “wrong” religion, then, well, you can be subject to a lawsuit for discrimination. But employers now can just google for that person before the interview, and exclude them if they’re not from the “right” religion. No law is broken.
[16:09] Tor Karlsvalt: No and the FBI wants to track your email if necessary
[16:09] Tor Karlsvalt: infact they are against encryption.
[16:09] Ceorl Onlyone: right, or gay, or republican, or yankees fan
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes. But the war against encryption was won in the 1990s…
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Ceorl!
[16:10] Pip Torok: was it Gwyn?
[16:10] Ceorl Onlyone: who won?
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, encryption is allowed πŸ˜€
[16:10] Ceorl Onlyone: ah
[16:10] Tor Karlsvalt: It surfaced again I think with Blackberry.
[16:10] Marianne McCann: Ceori – and that will become more and more common. Companies can and will use “social profiles” to decide is a candidate will “fit with the team”
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. One of the reasons why the BB is so popular, all information is encrypted. Governments hate that.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Marianne
[16:10] Pip Torok: yes but we are obliged to hand over keys to authorities when ordered
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllll
[16:10] Ceorl Onlyone: well they like it for their own data
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we can say: “oops I forgot the key” πŸ˜‰
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since you cannot be tortured…
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yet!
[16:11] Pip Torok: IF we can get away with it
[16:11] Ceorl Onlyone: ha but you can be “interrogated”
[16:11] Ceorl Onlyone: which you also wont like
[16:11] Alexia Carnell: right ceorl
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I prefer not to think about that, Ceorl πŸ˜›
[16:11] Alexia Carnell: disconnected equal fired
[16:11] Ceorl Onlyone: yes we all would like to not think about that πŸ™‚
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, ugh
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh well. We’re at it for an hour, let’s call it a night. I think that we all agree on more education, and that means “spreading the word”
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s fine …
[16:13] Pip Torok: it isnt yet settled in british Courts whether its up to the police to prove the key ive given them is fake .. or whether i have to prove that my key is genuine
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (interesting, Pip, I didn’t know that πŸ™‚ )
[16:13] Marianne McCann: Have fun, all. Good talk
[16:13] Ceorl Onlyone: thank you for arranging this Gwyn πŸ™‚
[16:13] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann grins
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I’d like to recall something Ceorl said earlier…
[16:13] Ceorl Onlyone: it is good to not face this alone
[16:13] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Thank you for hosting this, Gwyneth.
[16:13] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks for the talk Gwyn.
[16:14] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Would you be willing to set up another short one in perhaps a month, to see where things are?
[16:14] Tor Karlsvalt: it was a great idea
[16:14] Pip Torok: in law … the accused IS innocent till proved guilty .. but in that area its still grey
[16:14] Alexia Carnell: yes that would be great Gwyn
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a very very optimistic purpose on this group hehe… thinking about how citizens on the Internet can effectively defend their rights, and not just remain as chat logs on a blog πŸ˜‰
[16:14] Ceorl Onlyone: and the opposite applies in business Pip πŸ™‚
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most definitely, Garidin. I hope to run these events every week although, to be honest, I’m not sure about the next two πŸ˜€
[16:14] Pip Torok: of course … but then business have their own law in effect
[16:14] Ceorl Onlyone: well I am very motivated to protect myself and those I care about πŸ™‚
[16:15] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Thank you very kindly!
[16:15] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow smiles
[16:15] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Much appreciated!
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh if we just meet ONCE, Garidin, this gets quickly forgotten πŸ™‚
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who knows, the shortest-lived service by Google was Lively β€” 7 months
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google Plus might die a slow death in 7 months
[16:15] Garidin Winslow (garidin): That’s how I feel about it.
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the issues raised here will not “die”.
[16:15] Pip Torok: quite gwyn … anyway you will at least have a forum!
[16:15] Ceorl Onlyone: well Plus seems pretty active to me still
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): I am old enough to remember the PMRC and Tipper Gore’s censorship.
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): People forget.
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that others will host as well haha β€” I’m just kickstarting the discussion πŸ˜‰
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): BRAVO!!!!!!
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): .;:+*’`’* APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE *’`’*+:;.
[16:16] Garidin Winslow (garidin): β™«~~β™«~~APPLAUSE~~β™«~~β™«
[16:17] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Garidin Winslow giggles
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not old enough for that, Garidin πŸ˜‰ hehe β€” but that’s no excuse! I’m supposed to read about totalitarianism as part of my history classes in high school, and understand why it was so important that my teachers talked about that!
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Garidin…
[16:17] Tor Karlsvalt: Everyone like the invisible prim so we can get your data
[16:17] Tor Karlsvalt: πŸ™‚
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[16:17] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Hee, Tor!
[16:17] Tor Karlsvalt: lol
[16:17] Ceorl Onlyone: oh I have the transcript from before when you crashed Gwyn
[16:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I am kidding
[16:18] Ceorl Onlyone: if you lost it
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’ll save a chat log, so you’ll all be logged and transcripted and whatnot πŸ™‚ … and fed directly into Google! Watch out for the mass deletion of your accounts hehe
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw thanks Ceorl
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love that avatar haha
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cuteness +1 πŸ˜‰
[16:18] Garidin Winslow (garidin): It’s adorable!
[16:18] Pip Torok: thanks Gwyn
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks for letting me use your space, Pip!
[16:19] Pip Torok: well its yours weekly if you wish
[16:19] Tor Karlsvalt: nice space for discussions
[16:19] Pip Torok: better than the biergarten imo
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for the transcript, Ceorl πŸ™‚
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Pip… yes, less lag πŸ˜‰
[16:20] Tor Karlsvalt: roomier
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That too!
[16:20] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Take care everyone!
[16:20] Pip Torok: more sober!
[16:20] Tor Karlsvalt: ok
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, and if we get a full house, we can always teleport to the skybox πŸ™‚
[16:20] Ceorl Onlyone: well great meeting, hope to see you all soon, and boy we have a lot of homework πŸ™‚
[16:20] Pip Torok: true!!!
[16:20] Garidin Winslow (garidin): Nice meeting all of you!
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha oh yes
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: btw
[16:20] Tor Karlsvalt: true
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m accepting volunteer writers for virtualgovernance.tk of course
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No conditions… just post at will lol
[16:21] Pip Torok: will think about it …
[16:21] Ceorl Onlyone: yes, thank you, I may be a better heckler than writer though
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestions about topics are most welcome… I’ll try to at least cover the main categories there
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heckling is fantastic!
[16:22] Ceorl Onlyone: ok bye for now πŸ™‚ stay safe everyone πŸ™‚
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes… there will be a group for this… one day haha
[16:22] Pip Torok: tks ceorl!
[16:22] Tor Karlsvalt: oh with all the noobs in NFS, you might have gotten lots of interesting comments
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye all, and thanks so much for coming!!!
[16:22] Lilith Ivory: bye for now – I need to run also
[16:22] Pip Torok: bye Gwyn!
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might? Well, comments are most welcome!
[16:22] Lilith Ivory: hope to meet you soon again