Discussion around SOPA and PIPA, Jan 18, 2012 – Chat transcript
Today (January 18, 2012) is the day the Web goes on strike to protest against the soon-to-be-voted-upon SOPA and PIPA bills in the USA, which will restrict free speech on the Internet world-wide to an unprecedented scale. Well, not the whole Web, but you might have noticed that Wikipedia is (deliberately) down as a protest, Google has put a small notice below the search box, and WordPress.com and Wired Magazine have been creative in the way they show their first page. Reddit, Mozilla, and many others are simply blocking their first page and showing information from either http://sopastrike.com or http://americancensorship.org. 3 million Americans have already signed a petition to try to stop these bills.
These bills, if passed, will also affect Second Life (and the whole world, in fact) and not only the US Web. So I propose to hold a small meeting later today — at 3 PM SLT — just to discuss this.
Held at the Colonia Nova Auditorium.
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiya 😀
[14:56] Roxie Marten: hi gwyneth, long time no see
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed Roxie! 😀
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi queen!
[14:57] Roxie Marten: Omg
[14:57] Roxie Marten whispers: omg your avie is soooo old. I Never seen one that old LOL
[14:57] WHITE Queen: I have a regular event at 3.30 so if I go it is not this event in any way:)
[14:57] WHITE Queen: Hi Gwyneth
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Queen 🙂 that’s ok
[14:57] WHITE Queen: I’ve seen 2003
[14:57] Roxie Marten: just had to say that, I get it all the time
[14:57] Roxie Marten: I have too
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn grins 🙂
[14:58] WHITE Queen: New….but I take advantage of Free Speech on sl
[14:58] WHITE Queen: an imperative
[14:58] Roxie Marten: took a cruise past the blog of the most famous antagonist in sl and guess what prok supports sopa. am I surprised
[14:58] Roxie Marten: NOT
[14:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’ll think differently when he gets censored
[15:00] Roxie Marten whispers: already working up my business plan for a spoof server farm in europe linked to the real one in a the grand cayman islands 🙂
[15:00] WHITE Queen: No…’he’…whoever, will start a blame game …at others
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn wants to join that!
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Queen: probably! But actually, Prokofy Neva is quite keen on freedom of expression; he might just (wrongly) believe that SOPA/PIPA is somehow enhancing it and not restricting it, and that’s why he supports it.
[15:01] WHITE Queen: I have no idea what it is…I’m from England….and it sounds American:))
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh right! I’m from Portugal, Queen ㋡
[15:01] WHITE Queen: nice
[15:02] Roxie Marten: Techically it’s unworkable it just means there will be the public net and the boot leg net
[15:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Fb, welcome!
[15:02] Fblurbg: Hi
[15:02] WHITE Queen: Hi
[15:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what I expect to happen, Roxie hehe
[15:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which might not be THAT bad — the “public net” will be just Disney and a few scattered sites 😉
[15:03] WHITE Queen: a bit like a teen sl?
[15:03] WHITE Queen: infantalised
[15:03] You have been added to the group.
[15:03] Roxie Marten: IN the 80’s when the hard liners where trying to oust yestline, the fins ran back door net connection to the russian parlinent to get the info out. put sopa in and you will see the same kind of thing on a much larger scale
[15:04] WHITE Queen: I am waiting for the lions and christinas…down there. the floor show
[15:04] WHITE Queen: christians
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. We sometimes get a few lions, yes!
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think they’re on strike too
[15:04] Roxie Marten: I got a 10 spot on the lions
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[15:04] WHITE Queen: ㋡
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some food for thought (I just got the PDF from someone who sadly cannot manage to come): http://www.districtdispatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ala_sopa_pipa_open1.pdf
[15:05] Roxie Marten: wearing black today to mourn the loss of common sense in our government
[15:05] WHITE Queen: arrogance
[15:06] WHITE Queen: not you
[15:06] WHITE Queen: hehe
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice touch, Roxie… I should have remembered that — I’m wearing a Chinese-inspired outfit, to remind us that censorship *is* active in China now 😉
[15:07] WHITE Queen: I’m wearing the UK flag…because I’m too lazy to change it
[15:07] Fblurbg: And I’m wearing…
[15:07] Fblurbg: uh…
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m waiting just another minute or so to see if the missing green dot is joining us… not that this is going to be a formal meeting… more like “raising awareness”; specially for the ones (like me!) thinking “oh this is just an US law, WE will not be affected” or “this is just for the WEB, SL is safe”
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both, of course, are wrong.
[15:07] Roxie Marten: Since 1995 the government has been trying a way to censor the net. I don’t buy the stop pirating line about this
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Roxie.
[15:08] WHITE Queen: I ‘could’ of course…..stay surfing in the UK only
[15:08] WHITE Queen: not bother with any USA sites, including sl
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right. Consider this thought…
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Disney finds out about this link on Google…
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (let me search for it)
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/DISNEY-TRIVIA-PART-1/2196666
[15:10] Roxie Marten: you knwo they could of shut down the wiki leaks page with this law if they had it at the time
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I *did* search for “Disney SL Marketplace”
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: on Google I mean.
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So.
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now Disney sees this and…
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Flags Google for hosting a link to pirated content
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google removes the link. One less search.
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Flags LL for hosting a link to pirated content
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL shuts SL Marketplace down.
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait… you say… LL might refuse, of file a counterclaim.
[15:11] WHITE Queen: I DO NOT USE GOOGLE….GOOGLE IS AN UNETHICAL COMPANY
[15:11] WHITE Queen: ㋡
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the same will apply to any other search engine which has a domain and/or server hosted in the US, Queen)
[15:11] Roxie Marten: I do find it telling that to two largest supporter are also the ones who have least supported the net that is the MPAAA and the changer of commerce
[15:11] WHITE Queen: First thing after booting any new technology..,.I remove google from c drive
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Disney then goes to the DNS provider which has the “secondlife.com” domain name.
[15:12] WHITE Queen: sure
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it’s an American compoany. So… the domain gets removed.
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the mean time, LL struggles in court… but… without secondlife.com active,
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: NOBODY can log in.
[15:13] WHITE Queen: the disney gets surrounded by protestors and cannot do its business…its innocent front is removed
[15:13] Roxie Marten: start using 184.108.40.206
[15:13] Roxie Marten: but then they can IP block as well
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Roxie!
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The next step, when everybody uses IP addresses to connect to SL, is having LL’s provider cut them access to the net.
[15:13] WHITE Queen: so a free isp in the ocean somewhere? floating in no countries zone
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Poof. No more Second Life.
[15:13] Roxie Marten: sl ip blocked my entire town over a kid on the adult grid
[15:14] WHITE Queen: using free satalite….
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All because an idiot used a Disney image on a product, which LL has absolutely nothing to do
[15:14] Roxie Marten: satalite has too much latency
[15:14] WHITE Queen: pigeons?
[15:14] WHITE Queen: ㋡
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes
[15:14] Roxie Marten: I Think of the RIAA susing a kid over a harry potter book report
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Queen: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt 😉
[15:15] Roxie Marten: it’s going to get into that stupid shit
[15:15] WHITE Queen: ty:))
[15:15] Roxie Marten: or like england whistle a happy tune and get a bill in the mail for public performance
[15:15] WHITE Queen: yes
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right… personally, I don’t worry too much about the “suing” aspect, because at least that means that someone can state their claims in court, where things have to be proven. My concern is the “Immediate blocking on presenting proof of copyrighted material on someone else’s site”
[15:16] Roxie Marten: the guilty untill proven innocment
[15:16] Roxie Marten: shit can’t type
[15:16] WHITE Queen: over here free speech is going down the pan with mass inmmigration recently….newbies crying their feelings are hurt because someone called them a name…
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, that’s what I cannot accept… oh I mean, I’d be fine if it were just an US thing., Sad, sorry, but fine. I’m sad about China as well, but what can I do? But the problem is, the “guilty until proven content” affects the WHOLE WORLD. It’s not just a local problem.
[15:17] Roxie Marten: What I hope is the net providers grow a set and stand up to this
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But are they, Roxie? What I see is that they’re scared,
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because if they don’t agree with SOPA; they will be the first ones to be targetted
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All it takes is one idiot with a computer, spamming on a public forum
[15:18] Roxie Marten: I mean as far as saying pass what ever the hell you want, we are not doing it
[15:18] Roxie Marten: they can’t shut down every net provider
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, they could!
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, you only need to shut down the providers at the main exchanges.
[15:18] Roxie Marten: the joke is on them, remember this is the same set f yahoos who want a master off switch for the net
[15:18] WHITE Queen: no? ahahahha
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This bill actually allows to force providers to drop IP address assignments to other providers who refuse to abide by the ‘law’
[15:19] Roxie Marten: they would have to shut down the back bone and that takes everything
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But they’re very close to do that
[15:19] WHITE Queen: change the plug hole for a switch>>
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[15:19] Roxie Marten: incluidng telephone servcie
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. Now is where things become interesting, Roxie 🙂
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because the Internet is not “just pirated Web sites” 🙂
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s telephone service indeed
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and TV in some cases
[15:19] Roxie Marten: The topology is designed not be able to take it down
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there are weak points — like the root DNS servers
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which sadly are in the US
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not *all* but most
[15:20] WHITE Queen: aww my event is starting:( hope this is on again
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And these bills do indeed allow companies like Disney to change DNS assignments at the very root
[15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Queen! Thanks for coming
[15:21] Roxie Marten: when Eisenhower (not al gore) charged aprap to design the net, he wanted it set up so that no matter what got nuked the net would stay running
[15:21] WHITE Queen: bbye all…I’ll look out for more
[15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Queen! Thanks for coming
[15:21] Roxie Marten: arpa
[15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi ergan!)
[15:21] Roxie Marten: you can’t turn it of
[15:21] Roxie Marten: off
[15:21] ergan Breuilly: Hello azll)!*
[15:21] ergan Breuilly: all*
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think it will ever be “turned off”. After all, Disney *wants* customers to see *their* sites
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and btw it’s not “only” Disney, of course)
[15:22] Roxie Marten: pass all they want it, all they are gong to do is make a bunch of honest people criminals
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What they want is to make sure that people are not watching *other* things. Like, say, YouTube 🙂
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the problem yes
[15:23] Roxie Marten: what they really want is not the people to know in 10 seconds when the government screws up
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmmh here is my solution — start spamming all sites for SOPA supporters and post links on their forums to pirated content, then immediately file a claim against *them*. So shut Disney & Warner Bros & Sony Entertainment down *first*
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, that’s the other side of the coin.
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The entertainment industry wants this to shut down competitors (and YouTube IS a competitor — it takes people away from TV and movies)
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Government wants this to shut down dissenting opinion.
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, as an added nice touch, it also gives control *over the whole world*. Neat and much cheaper than the usual methods (e.g. war, economy)
[15:25] Roxie Marten: entertainment industry reminds me of how it reacted to tv. know why move screens are rectagnle and tvs up until recently are square
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No?
[15:25] Roxie Marten: move industry change the format so you couldn’t not show movies on tv in 50’s
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can believe that 🙂
[15:25] Roxie Marten: it’s the 19050’s again, cept tv the Internet is the bogie man
[15:26] Roxie Marten: 1950
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That certainly makes a lot of sense tgo me, Roxie
[15:26] Roxie Marten: I have no love or respect for the entertainment industry
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *to
[15:27] Fblurbg: On a related note: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16424659
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn shouts: hi Aliasi!
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me see that, Fb 🙂
[15:27] Aliasi Stonebender: howdy. was just checking. thought I might have missed somethign important 😛
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Aliasi ㋡
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well depends on what you think it’s important; we’re just talking about SOPA/PIPA and how it will impact us
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Gilles!
[15:28] Gilles Kuhn: hello to all
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and welcome, Alfred 🙂
[15:28] Aliasi Stonebender: ah, yes. it’s certainly an important matter!
[15:28] boxy: hi 🙂
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re sort of discussing SOPA/PIPA and how it will impact us
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No matter if some of us are not even US citizens,
[15:29] boxy: gwyneth, gorgeous name
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but we’re all affected by it, because SL is hosted in the US 🙂
[15:29] boxy: i think flickr did the best sopa blackout presentation
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Alfred — it’s been ages since I last heard that… haha! thank you 🙂
[15:30] boxy: as a logged in user you can “remove” any picture for 24 hours
[15:30] boxy: gwy, glad to refresh the memory 🙂
[15:30] Aliasi Stonebender: well, it’ll pretty much affect everyone to some extent. I mean, luckily, SOPA is pretty much dead in current form (yes, yes, submit for markup… this is politican for ‘I know it’s dead but I have to keep the contributors to my campaign fund happy’
[15:30] Aliasi Stonebender: but PIPA is still out there
[15:30] Gilles Kuhn: not only sl and us legislator in blocking financial possibilities to international web site are doing an act of imperialism as great as england navigation act in the XVII
[15:31] Aliasi Stonebender: and of course, if it’s not made clear just how badly NOBODY wants this who isn’t old media trying to pump those last dry teats of the cash cow…
[15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got this link from Fern Leissa, who cannot attend the meeting at this time, but would ask permission for a transcript if you all don’t mind — her contribution: http://www.districtdispatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ala_sopa_pipa_open1.pdf
[15:31] Aliasi Stonebender: doesn’t want it, they’ll just try again
[15:32] boxy: did sl participate in sopa blackout?
[15:32] Aliasi Stonebender: some people *in* SL have,
[15:32] Aliasi Stonebender: \LL hasn’t done anythign special I think
[15:32] Fblurbg: Obviously, since we’re here.
[15:33] Gilles Kuhn: ll is only about money we know that…..
[15:33] boxy: aren’t we all 🙂
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I have my doubts; if it were “only about money”, LL would invest in something with a bigger return hehe — like Facebook shares 😉
[15:33] Gilles Kuhn: no if i would be alfred i could be rich
[15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s true that I never heard an official reaction from LL regarding SOPA/PIPA
[15:33] boxy: gwy, there’s the like button now 🙂
[15:34] ergan Breuilly: weo got a law in France called HADOPI for the protection of copyrights, works, fims, music, broadcast on internet wihtout the consent of the authors ; a just retribution in fact!
[15:34] boxy: how does it work?
[15:34] Gilles Kuhn: hadopi go farther than only copyright protection and even those are discutable
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, right… how does that work, ergan?
[15:34] ergan Breuilly: i don’t know if it’ss the same probleme for you!?
[15:35] Aliasi Stonebender: one of the more subtle blackouts is on a forum I frequent, somewhat well known in the set of people it caters to (roleplaying gamers) for it’s purple background.
[15:35] Aliasi Stonebender: today they changed it to black 😛
[15:35] Aliasi Stonebender: I 😛 because some of the users are saying they’d prefer it that way permanently, hah.
[15:35] boxy: good 🙂
[15:36] boxy: gilles, care to expand on the hadopi inner workings?
[15:37] ergan Breuilly: a small retribution for looking at the differents works like music;movies, etc…
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that makes sense!
[15:37] boxy: for looking?
[15:37] ergan Breuilly: for used them on the net!!
[15:37] boxy: how does it work on the net?
[15:38] Gilles Kuhn: that could be implemented by redistributing taxes on creators of content the fact to make pay for things that can be diffused is at my opinion a bad idea as it diminish the proliferation of culture
[15:38] ergan Breuilly: u should look at google Hadopi law!**)
[15:39] Gilles Kuhn: same for scientific paper the scandalous price of scientific newspaper is an hindrance to scientific research
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at this point I should be provocative 🙂 (and I’m reading the Hadopi site, ergan, it seems a bit more than just a contribution — if you fail to contribute, your access can get blocked, from what I’m reading)
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: agreed ㋡ Heh
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So these are two separate issues really.
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is how to make sure that artists get paid
[15:40] ergan Breuilly: yes it can, in some cases!
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because an artist that doesn’t get paid is an artist that switches careers — and thus we all lose the benefit of his work
[15:40] Aliasi Stonebender: I’m more for just letting things adapt naturally. Already you’re seeing things like the rise of kickstarter projects.
[15:41] Gilles Kuhn: indeed and another to have most people able to enjoy the artist creator/scientist creations!
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is considering “piracy is evil” so even restricting freedom of speech is allowed to combat piracy. That’s… infantile behaviour
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Gilles!
[15:41] Gilles Kuhn: dont forget poor people that live in third world countries the value of money is very different there
[15:41] Aliasi Stonebender: copyright violations are essentially only a problem in one specific case: the case where we treat an unbounded, easily reproducible thing as if it were a rare physical object.
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll give you an example of something which shows that the system is *already* flawed.
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For a YouTube channel that I host (not SL-related), I use only music for the videos which is Creative Commons
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: From an author, Kevin MacLeod
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who has ZILLIONS of public domain AND creative commons music
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now,
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: YouTube has an automatic engine to “match” music
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And in the past year, they started, “by mistake”; blocking everyone who was using Kevin’s music
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, well, Kevin was not “registered”
[15:43] ergan Breuilly: actually this law is mainly to fight against mass piracy!*
[15:43] boxy: gwy, i think one step is to get rid of the big recording labels that feed off artists taking most of the money. this model is old and rotten. just like unjustified fees by the banks.
[15:43] Gilles Kuhn: but mass “piracy” at my opinion is only a good diffusing of content
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So everyone who was using Kevin’s *free work* was being “flagged as a pirate”. Kevin despaired, he tried to talk to Google/YouTube to see what they could do about it
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So he had to register his music
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And put the “signatures” on YouTube
[15:44] Roxie Marten: is it really the artists not getting paid or that the corporations are not scamming. many artists today bypass the system to self publish. the group Pompamus has a thriving record sales they keep all the profits
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: all that for people to be able to continue to enjoy his free music.
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now how many artists, willing to give away their work, are willing to go through that mess??
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie: oh yes. Serious agents, for example, will tell their artists: “forget CDs. Everyone will pirate them anyway. Let’s do concerts, that’s where the money is”
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That works for music, yes
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not so for movie production
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: much less for book authorship
[15:45] Fblurbg: But people still go to cinemas. They thought VHS was gonna ruin that industry too.
[15:46] ergan Breuilly: it’s mostly for movies production!*)
[15:46] ergan Breuilly: Mostly it’s for movies production! *)
[15:46] Aliasi Stonebender: on the other hand, each of those have their factors. people *like* the physical sensation of a book in their hands, the hardcore readers anyway
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, because I live in what used to be a welfare state (hehe) I think that the *best* way to get *everybody* access to free things on the ‘net is to get a small tax on top of everyone, and that way, you could pool it and pay the artists. BUT I understand that a lot of people are not willing to pay to get free access to content.
[15:46] Roxie Marten: Movies have always been afraid of new techology. they were scared to death of television in the 50’s
[15:47] Aliasi Stonebender: I’m mindful of the Baen Free Library. Baen is one of the better known science fiction publishers.
[15:47] ergan Breuilly: true, yes!smile*)
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hullo Crap 🙂
[15:47] R. Crap MarinerR. Crap Mariner salutes
[15:47] Aliasi Stonebender: They have a website that makes a great many of the books they publish available for free download.
[15:47] Fblurbg: What bothers me is that they’re not willing to adapt to new technology… People don’t want to drive all the way to a store to buy a DVD, only to find they don’t have it, and drive to another, only to watch a movie.
[15:48] Gilles Kuhn: again about book some book are totally over priced BUT people will continue to buy hard book because of the beauty of them and indeed the physical different sensation, now i repeat creator at my opinion have to be pay by tax on ip and tobin revenue…
[15:48] Aliasi Stonebender: they also sell ebooks… and oddly, they find it’s helped boost sales.
[15:48] Roxie Marten: fb I agree
[15:48] ergan Breuilly: même les livres récents, nouveaux??
[15:48] ergan Breuilly: even the new books, new?
[15:48] ergan Breuilly: for free?
[15:48] Aliasi Stonebender: yes!
[15:49] ergan Breuilly: ok, it’s fine!*)
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, ergan, at least according to Amazon.com — they have sold more eBooks than physical books BUT the number of physical books sold has INCREASED
[15:49] Aliasi Stonebender: for most of the authors it’s ‘the first in a series is free, but we’ll sell you the rest’.
[15:49] Roxie Marten: because amazon can’t take it back
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is, the number or books sold is not “going down” or “stalling”. It’s really increasing. And that’s thanks to eBooks
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Aliasi
[15:49] boxy: this matter requires desruptive solution, which already is seen today with self content creators and distributors. we have to shake the middle man and make the prices affordable.
[15:49] ergan Breuilly: yes i prefere a book too!**touch the paper, the thing in myu library, it’s different!*
[15:50] Roxie Marten whispers: books don’t take batteries 🙂
[15:50] Fblurbg: If you create a product, and you find that people are not willing to pay for it… then you don’t COMBAT that by criminalizing them. You either create a better product, or find some other way to make money.
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not THAT easy, alfred. It’s easy if you’re already an established artist/author. THEN you can cut the middle-man.
[15:50] ergan Breuilly: lol*
[15:50] Roxie Marten: fb agreed, adapt or die
[15:50] boxy: take a look at iphone apps. they cost a couple of bucks and made millions to both apple and their authors.
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if you’re an “aspiring artist”, then you need all the intermediaries: people to promote you, to get you spots at radio/TV, to arrange concerts and so forth
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alfred: yes… for some.
[15:51] ergan Breuilly: internet is good for discover new artistes, true!**i agree!*)
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What I mean is that those “edge cases” which show incredible success are just that: edge cases.
[15:51] Aliasi Stonebender: On the other hand, thanks to the Internet I’ve found aspiring folks I never would have otherwise. Podcasts and blogs do a lot.
[15:51] boxy: you have to start some place
[15:52] Aliasi Stonebender: indeed, an entire *genre* of music I enjoy probably wouldn’t exist without the net. (nerdcore)
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nine Inch Nails, for instance, has two whole albums distributed for free. They’re a huge success. They also sell “special editions” of the CDs, but you can download them for free. But… they’re an established band. They are *the* NiN. So they can *afford* to give away their work.
[15:53] ergan Breuilly: yes, i think that it’s a false problem in fact!*
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Make a list of the top 50 artists in the world. All of them could afford to give away their work.
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some do 🙂 but most don’t.
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem is on the bottom 500,000,000 🙁
[15:53] Fblurbg: Gwyneth: Again, sure, it’s sad if aspiring artists can’t find a way to make their living through their art… but if people aren’t willing to pay for what you do, perhaps you should find some other way to make money.
[15:53] Fblurbg: For musicians there *are* other ways: concerts, merch etc.
[15:54] ergan Breuilly: u want to kill the “culture, the art”!**lol!**
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You need to be known to be able to sell concerts; and to be known you need people to promote you. These people don’t work for free.
[15:54] Roxie Marten: not sure about the top. I was quite shocked to hear how little some major bands have made on mega sellers. after the label takes their cut
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, “art” is not the same as other jobs.
[15:54] boxy: roxie, exactly
[15:54] boxy: those pigs are to blame
[15:54] Fblurbg: http://bandcamp.com/ and similar sites are probably the future of the music industry.
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie: oh yes. They make money from concerts, not CDs.
[15:55] Aliasi Stonebender: again though, Gwyn, some artists have embraced the different possibilities. Bandcamp is a good example.
[15:55] Fblurbg: Bands and artists can sell you individual tracks, some even let you download them for free or DECIDE how much you want to pay for them yourself.
[15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Edge cases!
[15:55] boxy: what’s wrong with edge cases? 🙂
[15:55] Roxie Marten: I was heart broken to learn that paul mccarthy does not own the songs he wrote with the beatles
[15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don’t represent the majority, alfred 🙂
[15:55] boxy: gwy, give it time
[15:55] boxy: it doesn’t happen overnight
[15:55] Fblurbg: You can promote yourself more or less free via the internet nowadays.
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Try it, Fb 🙂
[15:56] Fblurbg: I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s possible.
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not as easy as the edge cases like to admit 🙂
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just because it’s conceptually possible; just because there are indeed success stories; that doesn’t mean it works as easy as that.
[15:57] boxy: how many years these big record labels and movie companies been around? you won’t make them leave that easily.
[15:57] Aliasi Stonebender: well, the vast majority of ALL artists aren’t going to make it big, simply due to Sturgeon’s Law.
[15:57] boxy: they will hold on to sopa or any other act that will keep them on the throne
[15:57] Fblurbg: But really the issue here is on another level – small and aspiring artists are generally not the first to complain about piracy.
[15:57] Fblurbg: On the contrary, it’s the big labels.
[15:57] Aliasi Stonebender: (“90% of everything is crap.”)
[15:58] Fblurbg: Aliasi – true
[15:58] boxy: ali, ditto. including this conversation 🙂
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look, I can speak for myself lol — I do a *lot* of promotion of my articles, and my website has been running for over seven years, addressing a niche market of a few million people. How much do I earn? around US$50/year 🙂 I cannot live from my ‘artistic’ work, so I have to get a job — and by doing so, I won’t be able to write as much as I’d liked.
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi: precisely!
[15:58] ergan Breuilly: was interessant, but must leave alas, bye all!!*))*
[15:58] boxy: actually, it’s 80%
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You need a mass of bad authors to get a single good one
[15:58] boxy: but anyway 🙂
[15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye ergan, thanks for coming!
[15:58] Gilles Kuhn: bonne nuit Ergan!
[15:58] Fblurbg: Gwyneth: Indeed, and that is a sad state of affairs. I wish everyone could do what they wanted without having to worry about basic needs such as food and shelter.
[15:58] Fblurbg: But we’re not quite there yet.
[15:59] boxy: fb, idealist 🙂
[15:59] Fblurbg: And if people are not willing to pay for your work, then you have to adapt yourself somehow.
[15:59] boxy: we will never be there, fb
[15:59] Fblurbg: Perhaps not.
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right. You see, the problem is that society just has found three ways to accumulate cultural items…
[15:59] boxy: it requires a specially trained society
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) State-sponsored. That was how, say, Egypt and Rome got their art.
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Privately sponsored. That was how music and paintings flourished from the Rennaissance untgil the 18th century
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Mass production. That was the 19th century
[16:00] boxy: i like you, gwy 🙂
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re not exclusive, but they tend to be.
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol alfred
[16:01] boxy: well put
[16:01] Aliasi Stonebender: well, I’d say there’s another iteration, although it might fall under ‘state-sponsored’.
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is: art, by itself, is not inherently a good job to make a living. A sufficiently advanced civilisation, however, will find a way to sponsor art — that’s one of the hallmarks of “civilisation”: when it’s wealthy enough to support artists for free.
[16:01] Fblurbg: Agreed.
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Aliasi. If we want to abandon the 19th century — and I agree that it’s time we do that! — we need a new model.
[16:02] Aliasi Stonebender: As the efficency of automation increases, you need fewer people to actually make things. After a certain point, the wage-labor system just sort of falls apart. (Some would say we’re already approaching that point.)
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do agree, Aliasi. We have the technological means, just not the willpower to do that.
[16:02] Aliasi Stonebender: And as fan fiction and deviant art shows, people will make things JUST TO MAKE THINGS. Just for the acclaim of their peers or friends.
[16:02] boxy: yes, and developed enough to fight for the rights of animals. or women for that matter 🙂
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather — we, this audience — we might have that will. 🙂
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the “powers that be” are still stuck to the 19th century
[16:02] Gilles Kuhn: agreed may i add to artist theoretical scientist (style astrophysicist and other not applyable brand) and philosophers…
[16:02] Fblurbg: Yep.
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi: yes, but those people have other means of support
[16:03] Aliasi Stonebender: oh, sure, this won’t ever be able to be implemented in the US until, say, we can stamp out the last vestiges of prosperity gospel thinking and suchlike. 😛
[16:03] Fblurbg: Assuming they want to adapt, they do… being a freelance philosopher can be pretty tough.
[16:03] boxy: ha
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the 18th and 19th century, Kings used to do science… because they had enough time for that. Before that, they dabbled in science (another job which didn’t pay well back then)
[16:04] Gilles Kuhn: about those question an interesting model is the model of universal allocation which btw its too a proposed solution to the problem of wealth redistribution in the general economic system
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fb: specially if you have to “compete” with a professional philosopher who is paid for gthat task 🙂
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What’s “universal allocation”?
[16:05] Gilles Kuhn: basicallly the idea to give a small sum of money monthly to everyone sum just sufficient to cover basic need
[16:05] boxy: gilles, i’m afraid it’s not going to fly with the wall street folks 🙂
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh right, I like that very much hehe
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alfred’s right though hehe
[16:06] boxy: or the u.s. at large. you will be labeled a communist and hanged.
[16:06] Gilles Kuhn: notice that that sum is not to impeach apart of it to have too universal health coverage
[16:06] Gilles Kuhn: alfred i know…
[16:06] Aliasi Stonebender: the ‘citizen’s wage’ is an idea that comes up in some circles now and again. And I’ve often said SL in the days of stipends of all was like a very strange social credit economy.
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, I certainly agree that we could start at least with the artists using that model — i.e. raise a small “art tax”, pool the money together, and pay the artists. In return, they can work for free and all their work (since it would be funded by public taxpayers’ money) would be Creative Commons.
[16:06] boxy: hell, look at those commie canadians! 🙂
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is not very different from what happens in some countries which sponsor Science that way
[16:07] boxy: gwy, cool
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. state universities get money from the state budget, to finance scientists to do research, who in return publish their work for free.
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art should (could?) be the same.
[16:07] boxy: i think you should go to politics, gwy
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL no thanks!
[16:08] Fblurbg: Could anyone become an artist then?
[16:08] boxy: make a difference
[16:08] boxy: )
[16:08] Fblurbg: How would you apply for an artist’s salary?
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m too honest to be a politician 😉
[16:08] Gilles Kuhn: btw something necessary in the universal allocation idea is that it NEED to be universal which entail too a world currency and almost a world coordination in the us apart of commie i will be fried on the chair for high treason….
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fb: the same way scientists apply for a scientists’ salary, Fb.
[16:08] boxy: yes, sadly such people don’t stay up that long up there
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (i mean state-sponsored scientists)
[16:08] Fblurbg: So you’d have to spend your time writing grant proposals etc.
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… not really (you can do that as an artist today). Scientists write grant proposals to get MORE money to invest in research,
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but their salary depends on their position
[16:09] Fblurbg: Alright, but there’s a danger there. What if the state doesn’t “like” your art?
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which in turn depends on their curricula
[16:09] Fblurbg: Because it’s subversive etc.
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Fb. That’s true. That’s a problem indeed.
[16:09] Gilles Kuhn: actually grant proposal are war to accede to the few credit offered….
[16:09] Aliasi Stonebender: well, there are ways around that for a society interested in such
[16:10] Aliasi Stonebender: look at the BBC, for example, which is nominally ‘apart’ from the governent. It’s not a perfect arrangement but they do get their barbs in sometimes.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You *did* have that problem in the pre-19th century days. If you were a radical artist, you wouldn’t get a patron
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So most worked for the Church 😉
[16:10] Fblurbg: Yeah.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Radical artists just started to become popular in the 19th century thanks to mass production
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: independent from ‘state’ or ‘patrons’ — if your art was radical, but you could sell it cheap, then you’d be set
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I agree, that is a major flaw with state-sponsored art.
[16:11] Fblurbg: But then we’re back where we started.
[16:11] Gilles Kuhn: well that depend gwy look at bosch (el bosco) who was totally beyond the pale and had as patron Philip the second…
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure! Again, edge cases
[16:11] Gilles Kuhn: (who was not know to be exactly a liberal…)
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No 🙂 lol
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Edge cases are good to show that things are *possible*, but they fail to capture the idea that *they’re possible for everyone*
[16:12] boxy: hmmm, didn’t know about church sheltering radical artists. sounds bizarre.
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Most* artists were not as good as Bosch 😉
[16:12] Fblurbg: They probably didn’t know it either.
[16:12] Gilles Kuhn: not the church the king of spain in fact
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: King of most of Europe… 😉
[16:12] boxy: so, it’s state then 🙂
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (at that time)
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[16:12] boxy: why church?
[16:13] Roxie Marten: you knmow if this was the middles ages the monks would be gunning for that guy guthenberg
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Roxie
[16:13] Gilles Kuhn: and well michel angelo and other italian were protected by the church in fact
[16:13] Fblurbg: True
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so, and Michel Angelo wanted always to paint nakkid ladies! lol
[16:14] Gilles Kuhn: yes gwyn but if i need to write all the title of philip II i need all night….
[16:14] boxy: a good deal: protection of the church for the naked ladies to popes
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe Gilles)
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway guys
[16:14] Roxie Marten: it’s those pics of naked little boys I would be more concerned about
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re starting to digress, and we sort of have exhausted our hour 🙂
[16:14] boxy: yes
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, two things mmmh
[16:15] boxy: what’s the bottom line?
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: first, of course — thanks for coming!
[16:15] boxy: )
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We didn’t reach one! 🙂 lol
[16:15] boxy: gah…
[16:15] boxy: again
[16:15] Gilles Kuhn: tantum lucrum in ista fabla Christi (so much profit thanks to that fable which is the Christ) a say of an italian cardinal of the renaissance
[16:15] Roxie Marten whispers: thanks for having. see you again in 5 years LOL
[16:15] Gilles Kuhn: fabula*
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And secondly, I would kindly like your permission to post this transcript
[16:15] Fblurbg: Where?
[16:15] Gilles Kuhn: you have mine
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably at one site I have about Virtual Governance
[16:16] Roxie Marten: sure what dark suits show up later at my house
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: where these and similar things are discussed: http://virtualgovernance.tk/
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, forgot … it’s on strike
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but you might be able to get a cache from Google
[16:16] boxy: yay!
[16:16] Fblurbg: Cool, sure, go ahead.
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s say it’s a prototype of a group to discuss, uh, “regularly” these kinds of things that have to do with “rights on the Internet”
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather, rights that Internet users are supposed to have.
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are hundreds of similar groups… but none in SL. Yet!
[16:17] Roxie Marten: the right to lag, the right to be spammed LOL
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right! hahaha
[16:18] boxy: the right to be anonymous
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: YES; alfred!
[16:18] boxy: )
[16:18] Gilles Kuhn: yes alfred about that btw…
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s one of the major discussion points indeed
[16:18] boxy: it’s not goign to last long
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, the right to anonymity, or the current fight against it? What will not last long?
[16:18] boxy: the u.s. will eventually inctroduce the internet id
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mh! I see!
[16:19] Aliasi Stonebender: and on that day, Tor will reach millions of downloads.
[16:19] Roxie Marten: boxy yes and to think we invented it
[16:19] Fblurbg: There will always be loopholes, hopefully.
[16:19] boxy: yes, ghost in the machine
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear hear Aliasi
[16:20] Roxie Marten: the net is like frakenstien it’s creator has become afraid of it
[16:20] boxy: greed and fear, once again take the lead
[16:20] Aliasi Stonebender: well, we have the upshot in things like SOPA in that the newer generation of tech giants hate it.
[16:21] Gilles Kuhn: down with big brothers and all kind of anti individual freedom systems
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the mean time, let’s persuade LL to switch registrars to outside the US, to keep secondlife.com up, and tell them to at least open a data centre outside the US 🙂
[16:21] Aliasi Stonebender: the RIAA, the MPAA, they’re on their way out, ultimately.
[16:21] Roxie Marten: still goes through ICANN
[16:21] Aliasi Stonebender: But Google? Facebook, and the lot? they can pick up and go elsewhere.
[16:21] Fblurbg: Technology is a force of nature… it can’t be stopped.
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, yes. I forgot that, Roxie
[16:21] Aliasi Stonebender: There’s nothing magical about ICANN
[16:21] Gilles Kuhn: ll shareholder will probably not agree sadly
[16:21] boxy: gilles, we’ll found the “a for anonymous” movement when the time comes 🙂
[16:21] Roxie Marten: I miss internic doing the names
[16:22] Aliasi Stonebender: if other nations wanted too, they could decide to go with some other standard; ICANN is tolerated largely because they haven’t done anything dumb enough.
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alfred: watch http://virtualgovernance.tk/ tomorrow, when the strike is over 🙂 you might find the past articles and one discussion (transcripted there) interesting.
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi: that’s what I expect that MIGHT happen.
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If PIPA/SOPA gets too bad, the rest of the world might start boycotting ICANN