[2012/10/15 15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So anyway, thanks for coming .)

[2012/10/15 15:11] Shay Ellison: thanks for hostng.

[2012/10/15 15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A brief introduction…

[2012/10/15 15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A year ago or so, some insane people thought that SL would be the right place to discuss issues around governance, democracy, citizens’ rights, and so forth on the Internet age

[2012/10/15 15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ve not been very original — lots of group talk about that all the time

[2012/10/15 15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Few do it in SL, though 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the community we’re in being a very strange exception — more on that on another day)

[2012/10/15 15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmh after some enthusiasm about this time last year, the group didn’t meet again, so I thought — well, let’s get it starting again.

[2012/10/15 15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The world is a strange place these days 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On one hand, we have heralds of democracy trying very hard to do their best to convince the few remaining bastions of non-democracy to leave their governments and adopt democracy

[2012/10/15 15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But on the other hand, the ones among us who live in democracies start to have some qualms about it.

[2012/10/15 15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Namely, we heard in the mid-1990s how the Internet would help a lot in giving everybody access to freedom of speech

[2012/10/15 15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No editors! No censorship! No “control”! Everybody’s opinion counts!

[2012/10/15 15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand… does it really?

[2012/10/15 15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 10 seconds on TV, and you address millions.

[2012/10/15 15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One Facebook post and you address… hundreds? Thousands?

[2012/10/15 15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if you reach a 100,000… does it really *matter*?

[2012/10/15 15:15] Carl Metropolitan: In my case, with Twitter, 147 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the question for today (I promise to shut up!) is if all these wonderful social networking tools,

[2012/10/15 15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which keep us away from TV, radio, newspapers,

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and allow us to exercise freedom of speech — free from any control —

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: are really giving us “more” freedom of speech

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And now the floor is open 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, btw, no rules — feel free to say whatever you wish at whatever time you like hehe

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’re a small group anyway!

[2012/10/15 15:16] Carl Metropolitan Lowering the barriers to entry for publishing/media does enhance freedom of speech.

[2012/10/15 15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No censorship, no control …— remember? hehehehehe

[2012/10/15 15:16] DarcMikk: not really giving us more but giving us more options

[2012/10/15 15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok! I agree! “anyone” can become an opinion-maker. But who does actually read those opinions?

[2012/10/15 15:17] Shay Ellison: so, we looking at the social media just in the realm of ONLY social media?

[2012/10/15 15:17] DarcMikk: everyone that wants or has access

[2012/10/15 15:18] DarcMikk: but who really cares is the question

[2012/10/15 15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What do you have in mind, Shay? I’m not thinking of “just” Facebook or Twitter, of course; but also blogs, e-zines, podcasts…

[2012/10/15 15:18] Shay Ellison: I met with an old ex I never hated, and we’re going to try again making a relationship work now that we’re older and more grown up. we found each other through social media.

[2012/10/15 15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Darc: yes! Few care!

[2012/10/15 15:18] Shay Ellison: in other words, bridging social media with reality, the local community.

[2012/10/15 15:18] Carl Metropolitan: Yes. I get most of my news via the internet. I use several blogs as aggregators and filters and if I am really interested in something, I look in-depth via a google or a wikipedia search.

[2012/10/15 15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Naf!)

[2012/10/15 15:18] Shay Ellison: you mentioned before, using twitter and such for promoting changes to local constitution, right?

[2012/10/15 15:19] Naftali Torok: waves to all

[2012/10/15 15:19] Shay Ellison: what if those few hundred people actually scheduled a physical place to meet?

[2012/10/15 15:19] Naftali Torok: rezzing

[2012/10/15 15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed. We have seen this happening BUT….

[2012/10/15 15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … I actually heard an interesting opinion on a (RL) debate about that.

[2012/10/15 15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was a debate made by professional journalists… so they’re naturally biased…

[2012/10/15 15:19] Tanoujin Milestone: Hi Windows 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:19] Shay Ellison: it’s okay, I can sit on the floor. my spandex has extra imaginary comfort 😀

[2012/10/15 15:19] XTC (windows.bhalti): namaste, sweet souls 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:19] Carl Metropolitan: Also, before there is a knee-jerk anti-wikipedia comment, I want to point out that for any article on wikipedia you can with a mouse click find out the revision history, the discussions of those revisions–in other words a window into the processes and biases of the writers. Try doing that on TV.

[2012/10/15 15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What they claim is that people who “organise” themselves via social media don’t really gather enough people EXCEPT when mainstream media picks up the story.

[2012/10/15 15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then something which might have been “local” (Carl’s 147 friends on twitter 🙂 ) suddenly explodes in popularity

[2012/10/15 15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, social media is certainly the trigger — journalists are on Facebook too

[2012/10/15 15:21] Shay Ellison: yay false stories on facebook from too eager “journalists” wanting to get the word out 😀

[2012/10/15 15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s mass media that makes the message go across vast millions. So they claim. Remember: they’re biased, they’re journalists

[2012/10/15 15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: yes!

[2012/10/15 15:21] Shay Ellison: oh yeah, that did recently happen

[2012/10/15 15:21] Shay Ellison: several times. lol

[2012/10/15 15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Windows! hi tan!)

[2012/10/15 15:21] Tanoujin Milestone: 😉

[2012/10/15 15:22] Carl Metropolitan: I’m sure that someone with a job in the old media would want to believe that. But recent politics in the US has shown us that’s not the case. Take the rise of the Tea Party movement among the right. That was not covered by the old media until it got big. It started on blogs and facebook and twitter and the like.

[2012/10/15 15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What these people were saying is that social media *fragments* opinion EXCEPT when, by chance, mass media picks up the story

[2012/10/15 15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note: I’m playing devil’s advocate here, too. I don’t necessarily agree with those journalists 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:23] Shay Ellison: well, is fragmentation really all that bad too?

[2012/10/15 15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends! I’d say, the more important the issue, fragmentation becomes an obstacle

[2012/10/15 15:23] Shay Ellison: or a way to express yourself when traditional media would shun you

[2012/10/15 15:24] Shay Ellison: the gay community can testify in certain states that are very homophobic

[2012/10/15 15:24] Carl Metropolitan: Fragmentation is good. More voices the better. Let the marketplace of ideas sort out who gets listened to. Rather than the FCC (to use a US example)

[2012/10/15 15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s take a simple example, A small hamlet wants to discuss how important it is for them to get a new park with a playground for children. Obviously that it doesn’t matter much if the mass media pick up the story or not — so long as the few hundreds living ion the hamlet are aware of the issue. This certainly works well with social media.

[2012/10/15 15:24] Shay Ellison: sure

[2012/10/15 15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: aye, that is certainly an excellent example: minorities

[2012/10/15 15:25] Shay Ellison: not just minorities, but, the shunned group

[2012/10/15 15:25] Carl Metropolitan: There have long been small circulation newspapers targeting minority communities.

[2012/10/15 15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: yes

[2012/10/15 15:25] Carl Metropolitan: Those tended to fly beneath the radar of the old media.

[2012/10/15 15:25] Shay Ellison: sure, KKK has their own social sites for that

[2012/10/15 15:25] Delia Lake: last week in the US during and following the Vice President candadates’ debate tens of thousands of people were commenting via twitter. don’t know how many would have gotten heard, and there is a difference between speaking and being heard, if it were not for the tv media picking up at least a random number of comments

[2012/10/15 15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: yes, but I believe that Shay’s point is good for *certain* groups that might not buy those newspapers (because they might feel uncomfortable doing so!) but are fine in reading them via the Internet, where they’re sort of anonymous

[2012/10/15 15:26] DarcMikk: the internet is for rich white people so a lot of this has nothing to do with the real population

[2012/10/15 15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you think so, Darc?

[2012/10/15 15:26] Shay Ellison: well, the debate started as a national event, so of course the social media used will also get much more attention.

[2012/10/15 15:26] Carl Metropolitan: You are a rich white person, I take, Darc?

[2012/10/15 15:26] XTC (windows.bhalti): we have free internet access

[2012/10/15 15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: yes, that was a point made my those journalists — mass media and social media work well together 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:27] DarcMikk: yes i am, so i know what i am talking about

[2012/10/15 15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn /me is poor and white-ish lol

[2012/10/15 15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: made *by

[2012/10/15 15:28] DarcMikk: a lot of online info is not readily available to poorer classes which tend to be minorities most of the time

[2012/10/15 15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn /me is goot at Engrish

[2012/10/15 15:28] Shay Ellison:

[2012/10/15 15:28] Shay Ellison: broadband isn’t cheap.

[2012/10/15 15:28] DarcMikk: exactly

[2012/10/15 15:28] XTC (windows.bhalti): i’m colour blind

[2012/10/15 15:28] Shay Ellison: poorer you are, the less access to said media you’ll likely have

[2012/10/15 15:28] Shay Ellison: hence the white person reference

[2012/10/15 15:28] DarcMikk: internet and computers should be free

[2012/10/15 15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Darc: on that I have to agree. The problem with “Online info” is that too much fragmentation means that the information is hard to get

[2012/10/15 15:29] Alexia Carnell: nothing is free in this planet

[2012/10/15 15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Alexia 🙂 Good point 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:29] Alexia Carnell: absolutely NOTHING

[2012/10/15 15:29] DarcMikk: japan does that i believe

[2012/10/15 15:29] Shay Ellison: not even breathing, especially when living next to a polluting factory

[2012/10/15 15:29] Shay Ellison: that wasn’t even there longer than you.

[2012/10/15 15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that what Darc meant was: the government, through our taxes, ought to give people Internet and computer access for free 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:29] Alexia Carnell: and if somebody says he’s givin you something for free he IS a LIAR

[2012/10/15 15:29] Shay Ellison: ahh, but what about free market use of social media?

[2012/10/15 15:29] Carl Metropolitan: We can’t afford what our government is giving out right now.

[2012/10/15 15:29] Shay Ellison: do we want government to get involved?

[2012/10/15 15:29] Carl Metropolitan: (at least in the US)

[2012/10/15 15:30] XTC (windows.bhalti): we have free internet access in our libraries and schools

[2012/10/15 15:30] Shay Ellison: and soon we stray from main topic to go all political.

[2012/10/15 15:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say it’s true for most democratic countries, Carl (thus the point in this series of debates!)

[2012/10/15 15:30] Shay Ellison: SL is a social media site of sorts too, so it kinda works out 😉

[2012/10/15 15:30] Alexia Carnell: a very special social media

[2012/10/15 15:30] Shay Ellison: the sex industry definitely enjoyes it

[2012/10/15 15:30] Carl Metropolitan: Also, if the government gets into the business of providing free internet and computers, it gets a lot easier for the government to control what’s said on those “free” things.

[2012/10/15 15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes Shay. This is a good example. If this debate was on national TV (whatever country, it doesn’t matter) it might be seen by millions. But since it’s in SL, and even if you guys allow me to post a transcript afterwards, it will be just seen by a few dozens. SO are we really “giving an opinion”?

[2012/10/15 15:31] Shay Ellison: but long as no single entity controls the internet, we can still use it for ourselves.

[2012/10/15 15:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: excellent point, I was going to say that… 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:32] Carl Metropolitan /me imagines what the Terms of Service document for free government internet/computer would be like.

[2012/10/15 15:32] Shay Ellison: nothing is free if laws and rules are involved.

[2012/10/15 15:32] DarcMikk: saying that the internet would be free would be ideal. of course in america i feel the government would have control to a point. but in japan they are way ahead of us

[2012/10/15 15:32] Shay Ellison: can we agree on that? regardless of who sets the rules?

[2012/10/15 15:32] Shay Ellison: even SL has a TOS.

[2012/10/15 15:33] Shay Ellison: don’t blame government, blame linden labs

[2012/10/15 15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So some journalists say… well, here we are, debating politics and freedom of speech inside SL. Cool. We couldn’t do it anywhere else in RL (we might be living thousands of miles away form each other). So social media enhances our freedom of speech. BUT… nobody is really going to listen to us. We’re just being “tricked” in “believing” we have more freedom of speech. Is that statement correct?

[2012/10/15 15:33] Shay Ellison: unless they’re foced to do something based on government. then you can blame them 😀

[2012/10/15 15:33] Alexia Carnell: “nothing is free, but God” says an ancient greek saying

[2012/10/15 15:33] Shay Ellison: okay, how does one quantify freedom of speech?

[2012/10/15 15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: McDonalds gives free Internet access on their restaurants in my country hehe….

[2012/10/15 15:33] DarcMikk: god is not free

[2012/10/15 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: I think that’s the big question!

[2012/10/15 15:34] Carl Metropolitan: Why should the government have to control it? I will agree that they would do their damndest to. That’s the nature of the beast.

[2012/10/15 15:34] DarcMikk: exactly

[2012/10/15 15:34] Shay Ellison: no, that’s the nature of people

[2012/10/15 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d have to agree with Shay: government is made of people like us 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:34] DarcMikk: the truth is that our opinions only really matter to us

[2012/10/15 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Darc

[2012/10/15 15:34] Shay Ellison: people in positions of authority. CEO of a big business, or CandC of a nation

[2012/10/15 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But then what is freedom of speech good for? 🙂 (this is a polemic question!)

[2012/10/15 15:35] Shay Ellison: it’s always, always back to the person running things, not said instutition

[2012/10/15 15:35] Shay Ellison: want a bad government? elect bad people. done!

[2012/10/15 15:35] Carl Metropolitan: No. Government is made of people who desire control over other people’s lives. People who don’t have such a desire will not put up with the emotional and financial bullshit required to be in government.

[2012/10/15 15:35] DarcMikk: freedom of speech gives you a false sense of security

[2012/10/15 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ll get to THAT point on Wednesday’s event, Shay :))

[2012/10/15 15:35] Shay Ellison: want a criminal CEO who puts their bottom line ahead of the companies? appoint one and send them away with a golden parachute. done!

[2012/10/15 15:35] Carl Metropolitan: Freedom of Speech is a good in and of itself.

[2012/10/15 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Darc: that was what these journalists argued, and I couldn’t disagree with them totally

[2012/10/15 15:35] Shay Ellison: but quantifying speech, how do we even do that?

[2012/10/15 15:36] DarcMikk: it does not matter who you elect, it is the people behind the scenes that control everything

[2012/10/15 15:36] DarcMikk: they are just a rl avatar

[2012/10/15 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh I love that image!

[2012/10/15 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well said!

[2012/10/15 15:36] Shay Ellison: in america, that’s kinda what the national supreme court did. turned speech into a commodity

[2012/10/15 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please be here on Wednesday and repeat that 😀

[2012/10/15 15:36] Carl Metropolitan: Free speech is not a means; it’s an end.

[2012/10/15 15:36] Shay Ellison: the more money you have the more speech you got

[2012/10/15 15:36] Shay Ellison: in other words, poor people have little say

[2012/10/15 15:36] Shay Ellison: and oh the attack ads!

[2012/10/15 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even average people have little say

[2012/10/15 15:37] DarcMikk: precisely

[2012/10/15 15:37] Shay Ellison: and average people are swindled by those with lots of money, or more speech than they do.

[2012/10/15 15:37] Carl Metropolitan: No. The court did no such thing. It refused to restrict how people could spend their money to voice their opinion on political issues.

[2012/10/15 15:37] Carl Metropolitan: There’s a huge difference.

[2012/10/15 15:37] Shay Ellison: we just shut up and accept what they tell us to, and now the supreme court allowed that to happen on steroids.

[2012/10/15 15:37] Shay Ellison: and why does it works?

[2012/10/15 15:37] Shay Ellison: cause maybe we’re too ignorant. too apathetic

[2012/10/15 15:38] Shay Ellison: money only wins when you don’t care enough to see if it’s lying or not

[2012/10/15 15:38] Shay Ellison: so yeah, we only have ourselves to blame, and not citizens united

[2012/10/15 15:38] Shay Ellison: free speech doesn’t exactly mean, a better life for YOU

[2012/10/15 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. There is a certain urban myth being spread, an alleged memo sent among bankers, saying: “Democracy is bad for us 1% rich people, because those 99% can elect governments that curb our power. This is a problem. Fortunately, there is a good workaround: while those 99% are busily trying to become part of those 1%, they will do exactly what WE tell them to do :)”

[2012/10/15 15:39] DarcMikk: survival of the intellectual fittest. majority of people are ignorant and they follow the leaders

[2012/10/15 15:39] Shay Ellison: sadly yes, Darc

[2012/10/15 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: I agree with that

[2012/10/15 15:39] Shay Ellison: and when the money controls the mass media. . . .

[2012/10/15 15:39] Shay Ellison: and that is where fragmentation is a GOOD thing

[2012/10/15 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[2012/10/15 15:39] Shay Ellison: where we can get away from the big media for a change and not be forced into hearing what they tell us

[2012/10/15 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s good to restrict the “control” that money has over mass media, yes

[2012/10/15 15:40] Shay Ellison: if that’s even possible now

[2012/10/15 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However it has two problems…

[2012/10/15 15:40] Shay Ellison: there are plenty of sheeple out there

[2012/10/15 15:40] Shay Ellison: they don’t care about the money, just the message and how they react to it

[2012/10/15 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Unedited information is often false

[2012/10/15 15:40] Shay Ellison: and edited information is often false too 😀

[2012/10/15 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Fragmentation means that little gets spread at a massive scale

[2012/10/15 15:40] Carl Metropolitan: So is Edited Information.

[2012/10/15 15:40] DarcMikk: TV is a major issue in the states…people are living in comas

[2012/10/15 15:40] DarcMikk: kill your TV

[2012/10/15 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: well yes but not at the same scale 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:41] Shay Ellison: most major change starts small Gwyneth

[2012/10/15 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’re talking!

[2012/10/15 15:41] Shay Ellison: even a neighborhood can spread a message to the whole town

[2012/10/15 15:41] Shay Ellison: the county

[2012/10/15 15:41] Shay Ellison: then the state

[2012/10/15 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, how canw e put that to work?

[2012/10/15 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What means — tools — organisation do we need?

[2012/10/15 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or do we already have all we need?

[2012/10/15 15:41] Shay Ellison: be in it for the long haul for one, and don’t just restrict yourself to isolated media tools

[2012/10/15 15:42] Shay Ellison: it’s a good start Gwyneth, but shouldn’t be the, be all way of getting your message out there

[2012/10/15 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok! What kind of media tools are “Not Isolated”?

[2012/10/15 15:42] Shay Ellison: search engines!

[2012/10/15 15:42] Shay Ellison: okay, they still are, but not as isolated I guess 😀

[2012/10/15 15:42] DarcMikk: these days you really have to protect and limit your intake of mass media

[2012/10/15 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I agree, Darc, or at least have other sources of information)

[2012/10/15 15:42] Carl Metropolitan: Why is isolation a bad thing. Let people decide what media they want to use.

[2012/10/15 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, mmh search engines

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: for instance, how many of you take a given news story, and try to find other sources for it that may say something different? do you do your research or trust a specific source?

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: I found myself comparing 10 websites once

[2012/10/15 15:43] Carl Metropolitan: It depends on the source

[2012/10/15 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do that all the time, Shay, but my problem is… ok, now I have 10 different opinions. Which one is better?

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: just on the aftermath of the seal team taking out Osama

[2012/10/15 15:43] Carl Metropolitan: That’s why I like wikipedia and blogs. They link their sources.

[2012/10/15 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Carl! You’ve hit the nail on that.

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: that’s where the critical thinking and reasoning comes in Gwyneth

[2012/10/15 15:43] Carl Metropolitan: And you can see the biases at the source. If you want to.

[2012/10/15 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wikipedia is biased BUT at least they point to sources.

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: free speech does not provide that either.

[2012/10/15 15:43] Shay Ellison: that stuff takes effort on our part 😉

[2012/10/15 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So “free speech” also means: “Learn how to go after sources”

[2012/10/15 15:44] Carl Metropolitan: They not only point to their sources, they archive all edit and discussion history.

[2012/10/15 15:44] Shay Ellison: yes, wiki articles that don’t have links to other references I often just ignore

[2012/10/15 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now notice that this is a paradigm shift. We used to rely on editors to validate sources. Now that we cannot trust mass media any longer, we have to do that on our own. However, the average citizen is not trained to do that.

[2012/10/15 15:44] Shay Ellison: free speech means, to put it bluntly, freedom to be as much a follower of somene else you want to be. baaaaaaah!

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They accept pretty much everything dropped on their email box.

[2012/10/15 15:45] Carl Metropolitan: No. Free Speech means Free Speech. How you choose to use your free speech is up to you. You have the choice of accepting what you see on the six o clock news uncritically or digging for alternative views.

[2012/10/15 15:45] Shay Ellison: just being sarcastic 😀

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: True. But the problem is: what if you’re unable/unaware of alternative views?

[2012/10/15 15:45] Shay Ellison: like the people who find facts that counter their world view?

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did we scare a few people off?

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn /me counts

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol

[2012/10/15 15:45] Shay Ellison: and the facts make them disbelieve what you say even more?

[2012/10/15 15:45] Tanoujin Milestone: hehe

[2012/10/15 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naf, you don’t pay extra if you sit down! hehe

[2012/10/15 15:46] Naftali Torok: lol

[2012/10/15 15:46] Naftali Torok: maybe i can try now

[2012/10/15 15:46] Naftali Torok: my comp was too laggy before…;)

[2012/10/15 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn /me grins and makes a mental note to bring better chairs on Wednesday

[2012/10/15 15:46] Shay Ellison: social media is good for religious groupings if they’re not too well known it seems

[2012/10/15 15:46] Shay Ellison: and if said media allows any voice to speak against their religion as well. . . .

[2012/10/15 15:46] Carl Metropolitan: When is the last time you read a mass media article or watched a TV news spot on a topic you had in-depth personal knowledge of? How many basic errors did the make? How often did they totally miss the point. Remember. It is not just that one topic they are messing up. It is EVERYTHING.

[2012/10/15 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting that you say that, Shay… 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: oh yes

[2012/10/15 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is, indeed, the MAJOR problem with mass media

[2012/10/15 15:47] DarcMikk: ty everyone for the lovely chat. i gotta run

[2012/10/15 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The major problem with social media is… yes, the “right” opinions — the ones who have access to things as they are, the ones who have credibility, etc. — are too hard to find

[2012/10/15 15:47] DarcMikk: live long and prosper!

[2012/10/15 15:47] Tanoujin Milestone: bye, Darc

[2012/10/15 15:47] Shay Ellison: mass media by design, is consolidated control. you take what they give you and if they own all the media outlets, you can’t really find another source on the TV

[2012/10/15 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks so much for coming, Darc!)

[2012/10/15 15:48] Shay Ellison: BUT, there’s the other end of things too.

[2012/10/15 15:48] Shay Ellison: those who actually control the media itself

[2012/10/15 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes?

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: what stories get released

[2012/10/15 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right.

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: what THEY feel you need to know in the news

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: and whether you have the appetite for it or not.

[2012/10/15 15:49] Carl Metropolitan: Just today, Andrea Mitchell on MSNBC stated about that Felix Baumgartner sky-dive that he traveled “faster than the speed of light”

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: then social media is more an escape from what you see on TV

[2012/10/15 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean sex, scandals, and violence? 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: wtf??

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison /me facepalms

[2012/10/15 15:49] Carl Metropolitan: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/msnbc-chyron-fail-felix-baumgartner-traveled-faster-than-the-speed-of-light/

[2012/10/15 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Carl

[2012/10/15 15:49] Shay Ellison: okay, she’s not a scientist, but still

[2012/10/15 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amazing!

[2012/10/15 15:50] Shay Ellison: if I could move faster than the speed of light, wouldn’t my mass be infinite? 😀

[2012/10/15 15:50] Carl Metropolitan: These are the guys reporting on science issues for everyone to make decisions on.

[2012/10/15 15:50] Shay Ellison: if she stuck to saying, mach 1, she wouldn’t have blundered like that

[2012/10/15 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good example to show how editors do little effort these days to check their sources 😉

[2012/10/15 15:50] Shay Ellison: hopefully she made a correction later though.

[2012/10/15 15:50] Shay Ellison: some networks are better on that than others

[2012/10/15 15:50] Shay Ellison: even if it takes them the next day 😀

[2012/10/15 15:50] Tanoujin Milestone: but isn’t this sky dive totally irrelevant?

[2012/10/15 15:51] Shay Ellison: in one way. someone has to tell us about it’s existence of the event, that it happened

[2012/10/15 15:51] Shay Ellison: AND the details of said event.

[2012/10/15 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mm hmm. But if it’s on mass media, we cannot trust it.

[2012/10/15 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it’s on social media, the RIGHT opinion might be somewhere… but we don’t know where

[2012/10/15 15:51] Shay Ellison: and if an atheist is ranting on a catholic blog site, then that person can’t be trusted.

[2012/10/15 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Wikipedia is a start (as someone pointed out)

[2012/10/15 15:52] Carl Metropolitan: Think about when the shooting occurred in the Colorado theater on the day of the Dark Knight release. Someone on ABC news went on the air and stated that someone associated with the Tea Party in that area had the same name as the rumored name of the shooter. No effort made to see if it was the same person. (and it was not)

[2012/10/15 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: ha! don’t talk me about atheists ranting on catholic blogs or vice-versa 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:52] Shay Ellison: social media provides more narrow control. where we can limit what others are able to say

[2012/10/15 15:52] Carl Metropolitan: The skydive is pretty much irrelevant to most people. But the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of light is not.

[2012/10/15 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: that’s really a shame — such bad journalism should be forbidden 😛

[2012/10/15 15:52] Shay Ellison: with mass media we have little choice but to put up with it now and then, or keep the TV turned off

[2012/10/15 15:52] Carl Metropolitan: No. It should not be.

[2012/10/15 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because we have choices?

[2012/10/15 15:53] Shay Ellison: and how do we know the choices are good or bad?

[2012/10/15 15:53] Shay Ellison: our own distorted bias 😀

[2012/10/15 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be my next question 😀

[2012/10/15 15:53] Shay Ellison: social media encourages our bias

[2012/10/15 15:53] Carl Metropolitan: My point is that the old media is no better at catching their own errors or correcting for their own biases than the average engaged citizen.

[2012/10/15 15:53] Shay Ellison: unless we CHOOSE to challenge our bias.

[2012/10/15 15:54] Shay Ellison: especially if they’re quick to get a story out there before the competitors, Carl.

[2012/10/15 15:54] Shay Ellison: that’s a large part of what led to incorrect info about the killing of Osama

[2012/10/15 15:54] Carl Metropolitan: When is the last time you all read a story about SL in the old media that didn’t make huge factual blunders.

[2012/10/15 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are a few anthropologists claiming that some people, who have above.average intelligence and “komputer skillz”, shut off TV and live in a “social” environment where they only listen to the biased information they like, and have no idea whatsoever what happens beyond their circle. The same, of course, can be said about some religious groups.

[2012/10/15 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: oooh excellent example.

[2012/10/15 15:55] Shay Ellison: same can be said of those who watch mass media, say MSNBC or FOX NEWS

[2012/10/15 15:55] Shay Ellison: and neither network is really news anyway

[2012/10/15 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least I can say: if that kind of story pops up on a *blog* where I can *comment*, at least I can provide some feedback! If it’s on TV, I cannot.

[2012/10/15 15:55] Carl Metropolitan: Yes, because it is better to listen to the biases of the old media than your own biases?

[2012/10/15 15:55] Shay Ellison: well, media preys on our fears as well, don’t it?

[2012/10/15 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fear sells ads.

[2012/10/15 15:55] Carl Metropolitan: Why are their biases better than mine? Because they pretend not to have them?

[2012/10/15 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: I don’t know the answer to that!

[2012/10/15 15:56] Shay Ellison: the most deadly bacteria known to humanity, and it could be in your peanut butter. find out more tonight at 10!

[2012/10/15 15:56] Shay Ellison: yay fears for ratings and viewers!

[2012/10/15 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: H2O — the most scary substance on earth. People can die from it.

[2012/10/15 15:56] Shay Ellison: too much sex can even kill you 😉

[2012/10/15 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Shay

[2012/10/15 15:56] Shay Ellison: but I can think of worse ways to go. . . .

[2012/10/15 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL

[2012/10/15 15:57] Shay Ellison: too much of a single source of media can be bad for you, can we agree on that?

[2012/10/15 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely.

[2012/10/15 15:57] Shay Ellison: whether it’s the “news” network you favor

[2012/10/15 15:57] Shay Ellison: or a specific website

[2012/10/15 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, I think that it requires _education_ to get people used to verify the sources of what they hear or view on TV, YouTube, Facebook…

[2012/10/15 15:58] Carl Metropolitan: It may be bad, but any state action to force people to see more “diverse” media is worse than the problem it would try to solve.

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: I remember having that in my current events high school class.

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: we sampled different media

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: compared and contrasted.

[2012/10/15 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, all they know is that “everything on TV has to be true because it’s on TV” *or* “everything I read on the Internet has to be true because it’s NOT on TV”

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: critical thinking skills applied.

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: wonder how many schools do that today

[2012/10/15 15:58] Carl Metropolitan: So it is one of those bad things that you just have to live with.

[2012/10/15 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: that’s exactly what I mean, yes

[2012/10/15 15:58] Shay Ellison: we can teach each other though

[2012/10/15 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Carl: I’d say, one thing you have to *learn* to live with,

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but who’s teaching that?

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to each other sure…

[2012/10/15 15:59] Shay Ellison: did you know I taught a tea party person how to use a search engine, and he left his own party?

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: what! lol

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s wonderful! I think! haha

[2012/10/15 15:59] Shay Ellison: he put in the work, didn’t like what he read

[2012/10/15 15:59] Shay Ellison: but couldn’t stop reading more

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amazing 🙂

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow that’s an excellent story, Shay!

[2012/10/15 15:59] Shay Ellison: and he wouldn’t shut up about it!

[2012/10/15 15:59] Shay Ellison: ugh. lol

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You should write about it… oh… wait… nobody would read YOUR story

[2012/10/15 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol

[2012/10/15 16:00] Shay Ellison: still, glad he was applying critical thinking skills.

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway guys. My time is up, and I have another event next hehe

[2012/10/15 16:00] Shay Ellison: wow. fast hour

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Busy busy! lol

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed!

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d really thank you all for coming,

[2012/10/15 16:00] Shay Ellison: and you’ll plug this event right. . . now!

[2012/10/15 16:00] Carl Metropolitan: What did he find that so disturbed him? I support the Tea Party and I’ve read a lot online and via search engines about it and the issues it is concerned with.

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you’re fine with it, I’d love to publish a transcript, but if you’re NOT fine, I’m ok with that too

[2012/10/15 16:00] Carl Metropolitan: Publish away.

[2012/10/15 16:00] Delia Lake: ty for organizing this tonight, Gwyn. I hope we’ll do it again

[2012/10/15 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nobody will read it, anyway

[2012/10/15 16:00] Shay Ellison: sure, wouldn’t be the first time others were required to read my text.

[2012/10/15 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes! Next event on Wednesday, 4 PM, same spot

[2012/10/15 16:01] Shay Ellison: gives me the illusion of having an opinion worth reading L:D

[2012/10/15 16:01] Carl Metropolitan: I will try to make it.

[2012/10/15 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://virtualgovernance.tk/2012/10/15/using-online-tools-to-forge-a-new-democratic-order/

[2012/10/15 16:01] Delia Lake: OK 🙂

[2012/10/15 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (exactly, Shay!)

[2012/10/15 16:01] Shay Ellison: oh, this tea party person left cause of specific leaders on a local level leading it

[2012/10/15 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ll have as a topic for Wednesday what are “democratic values”

[2012/10/15 16:02] Shay Ellison: I think he’s still tea party, just not with the people he used to listen to

[2012/10/15 16:02] Delia Lake: afk

[2012/10/15 16:02] Carl Metropolitan: Well, that’s always a problem. Most political movements attract their share of nuts and jerks.

[2012/10/15 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, guys! This was very interesting ㋡

[2012/10/15 16:02] Shay Ellison: and someone always knws how to exploit that

[2012/10/15 16:02] Tanoujin Milestone: so, fragmentation 😀

[2012/10/15 16:02] Carl Metropolitan: Thank you for hosting it.

[2012/10/15 16:02] Naftali Torok: merci beaucoup

[2012/10/15 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lovely to see you again, Carl, and nice to meet you, Shay & others 🙂

[2012/10/15 16:02] Shay Ellison: yeah, was a fun discussion. no shouting at eac other anyway 😀

[2012/10/15 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pas de tout, Naf! lol

[2012/10/15 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Shay

[2012/10/15 16:03] Naftali Torok: au revoir a tous

[2012/10/15 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next time we can shout! lol

[2012/10/15 16:03] Carl Metropolitan: Bye

[2012/10/15 16:03] Tanoujin Milestone: bye 🙂

[2012/10/15 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye bye!